界面新闻记者 | 王磬 周苏蕾（实习生-整理）

界面新闻编辑 | 郑萃颖

12yue13ri，《lianheguoqihoubianhuakuangjiagongyue》diershibacidiyuefangdahui（cop28）zaialianqiushoudoudibailuoxiaweimu，biyuqidebimuwanlebantian。jingguojiliedetaolunyuxieshang，dahuizhongyutongguoleyixianglishixingdexieyi，shoucijiang“zhububaituohuashiranliao”xieruwenjian。

jiejin200gediyuefangdachengdezheixiangxieyi，beichengwei“alianqiugongshi”。xieyihuyugeguo，“yigongzheng、youxu、gongpingdefangshi，zainengyuanxitongzhuanxingzhongbaituohuashiranliao，zaizheiguanjiande10nianjiakuaixingdong，yibianzai2050nianshixianyukexuexiangfudejinglingpaifang”。zheishilianheguoqihoubianhuadahui（cop）jubanjin30nianlai，geguoshouciyizhitongyi，yaozhubutaotaihuashiranliao。

ciwai，dahuihaizaizengjiakezaishengnengyuan、jiakuaitanbuzhuohetanchucunjishuyanfa、tuijin“sunshiyusunhai”jijindengfangmiandachenglezhongyaodegongshi。

gairuhelijie“alianqiugongshi”deyiyi？tatongguozhihou，qihouxingdongrengranmianlinnaxietiaozhan？zhongguoyouzaiquanqiuduikangqihoubianhuadelangchaozhongbanyanlezenyangdejiaose？alianqiuqihoudahuiluomudedangtian，jiemianxinwenzhuanfanglegongzhonghuanjingyanjiuzhongxin（ipe）zhurenmajun。

guoquliangzhouli，majunzaidibaijihuquanchengcanyuleqihoudahui，tazuoweizhuanjiacanyuleduochangguojitaolun，bingcanyulianhefabuleliangxiangyuzhongguoyouguandebaogao。tatanyan，bencihuiyidachengde“alianqiugongshi”juyoulichengbeiyiyi，erzhongguoyezaiqihouxingdongzhongbanyanyuelaiyuezhongyaodezuoyong。

马军是环保领域的“老兵”。上世纪90年代的媒体从业经历让他开始关注中国的污染问题，2006年他创立了公众环境研究中心（IPE），致力于推动环境信息公开和污染防治。2014年，他设计推出污染监测APP“蔚蓝地图”，让公众可以随时随地举报污染，并与监管部门联通。因在环保领域的杰出贡献，他曾多次获得国内外表彰，如“绿色中国年度人物”、“斯科尔社会企业家奖”、有亚洲诺贝尔奖之称的“麦格塞塞奖”，等等。2006 年，马军还与时任国务院总理的温jiabaoyiqiruxuanledangnian《shidaizhoukan》“quanqiuzuijuyingxianglide100ren”。

以下是访谈全文，刊发时有编辑：

jiemianxinwen：ninzaijinnianqihoudahuiqijiandezhuyaohuodongyounaxie？

majun： zaiqucanjiaqihoudahuizhiqian，womenipejiuyuzhongguohuankeyuan，diqiuzhiyouyiqifabuleyifenbaogao，jiaozuo《yingduiqihoubianhuadezhongguowushixingdong》。qihoudahuiqijian，ipehaiheqinghuadaxueshehuikexuexueyuanhejijianglaoshiyijiwuchanghualaoshituanduihezuo，fabulelianhezhizuodeguangfuditu，baquanqiu5wanduogeguangfudianzhanbatabiaozhuzaiditushang，shiderenmenkeyixizhidigenjinguangfuchanyedefazhantaishi，ranhoutongguodiaoyan，shibieqizhongdeyouxiuanli，fangdaoditushangzhanshi。

zaidahuiqijian，woyecanjialeduochanghuiyitaolun。chuleipe，wohaizaiquanqiuqihouzhiliweiyuanhuirenzhi。tamenyouliangchangzhuyaodehuodong，diyichangshihezuokezaishengnengyuandezhuanjiaquyantao，guanyukezaishengnengyuantebieshiguangfuchanyeruhezaiquanqiujiasutuiguang，ruheyukechixufazhanmubiaoxiangjiehe；dierchangshitantaoquanqiudeqihouzhilijiagouyinggairuhewanshan。

lingwaiwohaicanjialeliangchangheguangfuqiyexiangguandehui。qizhongyouyichangshilongjizuzhideguanyuguangfuchanyedebianhui，tidaolegongyinglianguanlidewenti，tebieshishuzihuadehesuan，mubiaodesheding，nenggoufunengyuzhongxiaoqiyeweizhudegongyingshangqushijizhankaikechixuxingdong。

jiemianxinwen：ninduijinnianqihoudahuidezongtiyinxiangshishenme？

majun：zheicishiwoyiqingzhihoudiyicihuidaoxianxiacanjiaqihoudahui。zheicidahuiganjuefeichangyoushouhuo。duiyuquanqiulaijiang，dahuiguanzhudugenggaole，gengwushile，tongshizhongguodexiangguanxingdongdedaolegengduodeguanzhu。zhenggedahuicanhuiderenshuchuangxialejilu，guanfangshuoshi10wanren。zhongguoquniancanhuirenshuzhiyoubudao100ren，jinnianzhongguojiaonenggouzhucedejiuyou1300ren。laizizhongguodecanhuirenyuanchuledaibiaohaiyouguanchayuan，suoyijinnianzhongguocanhuirenshubiguoqurenheyiniandouyaoduo。zhongguojiaofeichangrenao，butongyuwangniandexuanjiang，jinniandajiayonggengduodeshijixingdongqujiaoliufenxiang。

jiemianxinwen：benciqihoudahuishangdachengde《alianqiugongshi》weihezhongyao？

majun：xieyidedachengkanchengshiyigexindelichengbei，yinweizheishidiyicimingqueyaoconghuashinengyuandejiaoduquzhuanxing，zheishifeichangjiannande。

huashinengyuanzaigongyegemingyilai，zhangqizhichengrenleideshengchanshenghuo，barenleiwenmingtigaodaoqiansuoweiyoudegaodu。danlingyifangmian，zaiqihoubianhuazhong，huashinengyuanshiyigehexinwenti。biruzhongguodeeryanghuatandepaifangzhong，90%douyuhuashinengyuandeshengchanhexiaohaoyouguan。danshiquanqiuyou190 duogeguojia，zheixieguojiachuyuwanquanbutongdefazhanjieduan，biruduiyuhuashinengyuandeyilaichengduyebutong。yixieguojiadecaizhengshourugaoduyilaihuashideshengchanhexiaoshou，haiyouyixiexiaodaoguoyinweihaipingmiandeshangshengyijingdaoleshengsicunwangdebianyuan。zuizhongdewenbenxieshangyizhishihenjiannande。

lingwai，zheicidahuilingyixiangjiaodianshi，tashi《balixieding》zhihoudeshoucipandian。takeyigaosuwomen，zai《balixieding》zhihou，renmendeqihouxingdongqudelezenyangdejinzhan，haiyouduodachaju，yinggaicaiqushenmeyangdexingdong。zaipandianzhongkeyikandaoqueshiyoujinzhan，renmenduiyingduiqihouweijiningjulegongshi，you150duogeguojiadouzuochuletanzhonghedechengnuo。zheixiechengnuoruguonenggouluoshi，jianghuishideshengwenkongzhizai2.4dao 2.7sheshiduzhijian（zhizaibenshijineipingjunqiwenxiangbigongyehuaqiandeshuiping）；ruguobucaiqurenhexingdong，shengwenjianggaoda4sheshidu。

danchaoguo2sheshidudeshengwenyiranshifeichangdadewenti，yinwei《balixieding》shiyaojiangshengwenkongzhizaiyuandiyu2sheshidu，lizhengzai1.5sheshiduzhixia，ermuqianjulimubiaoxiangchahenduo。yaojiejuewenti，jiubixuyaochujihuashinengyuan。suoyizheicidahuibaokuooumeng、yixiexiaodaoguojihenduohuanbaozuzhideyaoqiudoushizhubutaotaihuashinengyuan，zhishaoyaozhubujianshaohuashinengyuan。danyeyouyixieguojiajianjuefandui，yinweitamenyouzijideliyi。haiyouxieguojiadejumindouhaimeiyouzugoudedianligongying，suoyitamenjianjuefandui。zuizhongdachengxieyi，shidezhenggerenleiyingduiqihoubianhuadegongzuoyouxiangqianmaijinleyibu，suoyiyebei《lianheguoqihoubianhuakuangjiagongyue》dezhixingmishuximeng•sidier（simon stiell）chengwei，zheishi“huashiranliaoshidaizhongjiedekaishi”（the beginning of the end of the fossil fuel era）

jiemianxinwen：qishixuduonianyilai，lianheguoqihoudahuishangyizhidouyouzhongjiehuashiranliaodehusheng。danguochengwangwangfeichangjiannan。zainikanlai，《alianqiugongshi》weihenengdacheng？

majun：zheizhongjianyejinglilejigeguocheng。cop28zhuxi（suertan·jiabier）shialianqiuzuidayouqigongsidefuzeren，dahuikaishizhiqianjiuyouzhengyi。suihoualianqiuzuoweizhubanguozuochuleyigelingrenyiwaidezitai，zaikaimudediyitianxuanbudaitoujuankuan1yimeiyuandao“sunshihesunhaijijin”（bianzhezhu：gaijijinzhizaiweizuiyishouqihoubianhuayingxiangdeguojiatigongcaizhengyuanzhu），zhihouyouxuanbujuankuan300yimeiyuanchenglixindeqihoujijin，huanjielegefangdezhiyi，suoyizhenggehuiyishizaixiangduilianghaodefenweizhixiajinxing。

danshihuiyijinxingdaodierzhoudeshihouyouchuanchuxiaoxi，cop28zhuxicengbiaoshi，meiyoukexueyijubiaomingzhubutaotaihuashiranliaojiunengshixianjiangquanqiushengwenxianzhizai1.5sheshidudewenkongmubiao。zaiqianmiangongbudewengao（lianheguoqihoujigou12yue8rigongbudexieyicaoan）limian，wenbenlihaicengjingyou“phase out（zhubutaotai）”biaoshu，zaidahuilinjinweishengshi，gengxindeyigao（12yue11rigongbudexieyicaoan）youmeiyoule，yinciyinqilehenduofandui，danzuihouyouyilingwaideyizhongxingshijiarujinqu，yongle “"transitioning away from fossil fuels"（xiangtingzhishiyonghuashiranliaoguodu）” zheiyangyigejiangfa。dangranyiranyouhenduorenbumanyi，yinwei“guodu”meiyoushedingjutidenianfen，mubiaoyebuqingxi。

neixiefanduixieru“huashinengyuanzhubutaotai”shuofadediyueguoyouyixiechuyuzishenliyideqitu。zaizheizhongjian，zhongguobanyanyigezhongyaodejiaose，cujingefangxianghubaorong。

cop28dahuikaishizhiqian，zhongguohemeiguozaijiazhouyangguangzhixiangdachenglegongshi。《yangguangzhixiangshengming》liyijingtidao，zhubujianshaomeitan、shiyouhetianranqizheixiehuashinengyuan，zhichiershiguojituandao2030nianjiangkezaishengnengyuanzengzhisanbei，nengyuanxiaolvzengzhiliangbei，duijiawandengfeieryanghuatanwenshiqitijianshaopaifangzuochuchengnuo，zheixiegongshiduizheicidahuinenggoudachengdequanqiugongshidaxialefeichangzhongyaodejichu。yinweizhongmeiliangguodetanpaifangjiaqilaizhanquanqiude40%yishang，juyoujuedingxingdeyingxiangli。cop28dachengdequanqiugongshijibenshangshiyanzhezhongmeizhijiandachengdegongshixiangqiantuijinde。

worenweizhongmeihezuosuofahuidezuoyongzhong，zuidaliangdianshikezaishengnengyuanzhuanxing，youqishizhongguodekezaishengnengyuanfazhansuduranghenduorenyiwai，zheiyezengqianglegeguoshixiannengyuanzhuanxingdexinxin。zaijinnian6yue，zhongguofeihuashinengyuanfeng、guang、shuidiansanxiangyijingchaoguolemeidiandezhuangjiliang，zheishilishixingdediyicichaoyue，yujikezaishengnengyuanmubiao2025nianjiukeyishixian。zhongguodeguangfufadianzhuangjirongliangqunianniandishijiejin4yiqianwa，jinnianqiansangejidushi1.2yiqianwa，zengsudafutisheng。zhongguodezhuangjizengzhangyujihuitigaoliangbei。

tongshizhongguoyoutongguochanyezhengcedeyindao、shichangdejingzhengjifachuangxin，qiyejiajingshenhejishuchuangxinshidezhongguozaikezaishengnengyuandeshengchanheyanfafangmianfahuileyinlingzuoyong。quanqiu80%deguangfuzujiandouzaizhongguoshengchan，60%dedonglidianchi，50%defengnengfengdianshebeiyeshiyouzhongguogongying，zheishidexinnengyuanzujiandeshengchanchengbendafudujiangdi，fengnengxiajiangleyue80%，taiyangnengjiangdileyue90%，weiquanqiudekezaishengnengyuanzhuanxingzuochulehendadegongxian。

zheicidahuiyoujin120geguojiaqianshulechengnuo，dao2030nianyaojiangkezaishengnengyuanchannengtigaoliangbei，nengyuanxiaolvtigaoyibei。suiranzhongguomeiqian，danshizhiqianzhongmeizhijianjiuyijingdachengyizhi。tongshizaizuihoudedahuiwenben（xieyicaoan）limian，gongshiyexiejinqule。

dalifazhankezaishengnengyuan，yuhuashinengyuandezhuanxingshiyigeyingbideliangmian。yaohuashinengyuanzhuanxing，kendingyaoyouxindenengyuandequtidaita，jikezaishengnengyuan。ruguodajiaduikezaishengnengyuanyouxinxin、youchengnuo、youxingdongdehua，shixianhuashinengyuanzhuanxingjiuhuibiandegengjiakexing。

jiemianxinwen：guanyuhuashinengyuandetidaifangan，muqiantaolunbijiaoduodehaiyouheneng。danhenengweizhiteshu。juninguancha，dahuishangshifouyouduiyuhenengxiangguandetaolun？

majun：youbushaoduiyuhenengdetaolun，youdachenggongshidebufen。guanyuheneng，ouzhoubutongguojiayoufeichangbuyiyangderenzhi，birudeguojianjuefandui，faguozetebieyongbaoheneng。zheicidahuishangyou22geguojiachengnuodao2050nianjiangquanqiuhenengzengjialiangbei，shuliangmeiyouhenduo。

henengyouyixieteshudeyoushi，tajiuxiangmeidianyiyang，xiangyigediaojieji，zishenfeichangwending。buxiangduoshudekezaishengnengyuan，xuyaodaliangdechunengpeihe，huoduozhongbutongdedianwangqupeihe，cainengwendingdigongdian。zaiyixieguojiayexuyaoyonghuashinengyuanqufuzhuxinnengyuan。

jiemianxinwen：bencidahuidezhubinguoalianqiu，benshenyeshiyigeyouqidaguo。ninruhekandaialianqiuzuoweizhubinguodejiaose？

majun ：womenzuoweihuanbaozuzhi，alianqiudelichangkendinggenhuanbaozuzhiyouhendabutongde。zhongguoyouyijuguyu，jiao“buruhuxue，yandehuzi”。ruguozhendeyaotuidongnengyuanzhuanxing，jiubixuzhimianpangdadehuashinengyuanliyiqunti，baokuoyixieyouqiguojia，youqihemeitanqiye。zheiyicialianqiuyuanyizhuban，xiangdangyushizhimianwentile。

zheicisuirantichu，yaoconghuashinengyuanzhuanxing，danyejialehenduotiaojian，biruyaoshixiandeshigongzhengde、youxudezhuanxing，zheizhongjianyinhanzheliyixiangguandewenti，zheishixianshicunzaide，bunenghuibi。

lingyifangmian，youqidaguobixutingshijiedeshengyin，yaorenshidaohuashinengyuanshimeiyouweilaide，renleinengyuandeweilaishishuyukezaishengnengyuande。zaizheiyangdeqingkuangxia，tamenyeyaozuochuchongfendezhunbei，erbushiyizaidituoyanzhuanxing。xiwangdajiadoubijiaotanlvdiqumianduiwenti。

jiemianxinwen：ninzhangqiguanzhudaqiwuranzhili。zheicidaoalianqiucanhui，ninduidibaidekongqizhiliangganshouruhe？

majun：dibaidekongqizhiliangbuxing。alianqiubunengsuanshifazhanzhongguojia，danshimianlinzhekongqiwurandewenti。zaiwomendeyulanditushangxianshi，dangdishidaqiwuranwukelichaobiaodezhuangtai，buyihuwaiyundong。zuoweiyigelvyoushengdi，kongqizhiliangjidaigaijin。

wozheicizaicop28qizhongdeyichanghuiyiyeshiguanyuruhexietongzhilidaqiwuran，yingduiqihoubianhuahenengyuanzhuanxing。zheiduiyuhenduofazhanzhongguojia，tebieshiquanqiunanfangdeguojiadouyouzhongyaoyiyi。shijishangcongduijiankangdezhijieyingxianglaijiang，kongqiwuranduijiankangdeyingxiangshizaisuoyouwuranzhongzuida、zuizhijiede，yinweishejiderenqunshizuiduode，yingxiangdeyuqishoumingshizuiduode。ertayougenwenshiqitidepaifangtonggentongyuan。

jiemianxinwen：zhilidaqiwuranheyingduiqihoubianhua，zheiliangzhezhijianshifouyeyouzhangli？keyizenmexietong？

majun：zhongguozhiqianjiuyoudaqiwuranzhilidexingdongjihua，yizhidaolantianbaoweizhan，yijingyoushiniandezhilishijianle。zheishinianyexingchengleyixieyingduiqihoubianhuadexiaoyi，meitandekuaisuzengzhangshoudaolekongzhi，suoyizheixienianxingchenglexiangdangdadejianpailiang。danshizongtilaishuo，zhongguoyingduidaqiwuran，hendachengdushangyikaodeshimoduanzhilideshouduan，biruanzhuangtuoliu、tuoxiaodechuchenshebei。

moduanzhilidaoleshiniandeshijian，jibenshangtadexiaolv、xiaoying、xiaoyiyijingdadaoleyigejixian。yinweiyouxiexingyeyijingdadaolequanqiuzuiyangedechaodipaifang，zaijinyibushangshebeizaitishengdenandujiuhendale。xiayibujiubixuyaojiangliangzhexietongqilai，bixuyaoquchudongdeshinengyuanjiegou、chanyejiegou、jiaotongyunshujiegou，baokuojumindeshenghuofangshi。erwomendeshuangtanxingdongyexuyaozhuyizheixie，suoyizheiliangzheshiwanquanxuyaoxietongde。

yigangtieweili，gangtieshizhongguogongyelingyuchulehuojianzhiwaidezuidapaifangyuan，xianzaizhuyaoshiyitiekuangshigaoluliantie，shiyigejiaozhangdeshengchanliucheng；ruguogaiweidianluqulian，neijiujiaoduanliucheng。congzhangliuchenggaichengduanliucheng，bendidewuranheeryanghuatanpaifangdouhuixiajiangyiban，erqieshizaibuanzhuangsheshideqingkuangxia，zheijiutixianlexietongxiaoying。ruguoyongdianlu，bingqieyonghuishoudefeigangqulian，neitanpaifangyoukeyixiajiangyidakuai，xunhuanjingjikeyishixianjiangtanjianwudexietong。

zaibiruxinnengyuanqiche，zheixiediandongqicheyifangmiandafujiangdilejiaotongyuandewuranpaifang，lingyifangmiantayouqianzaideeryanghuatanjianpai。tanpaifangyouyigeqingxidejianpailujing，yinweitashiyongdian，ruguobadianyuanbiandegengqingjie（lirudianchizhizaoguocheng），neitajiukeyizhijiejianshaotanpaifang。

henduofazhanzhongguojiahenxuyaozheixiejingyan，nannanhezuoshiyigexindefangxiang。biruzhongguoqiangdadeguangfushengchanhuozheyanfanengli，ruguozaifeizhou、nanya、dongnanyazheixiediqutuiguang，huidailaifeichangxianzhudexiaoguo。

duifadaguojialaishuo，xianfashenglekongqiwuran，zaifashengqihoubianhua，zaifazhanzhongguojiahaimeiyouyishidaoqihouwentideshihou，tamenjiuyijingjingliguokongqiwuran，suoyitamenyijingcaiqulezhilidecuoshi。houlaitamenbagaowurandechanyezhuanyidaofazhanzhongguojia。zaizhongguo，liangzheshitongbufashengde。chanyelianmeifazhuanchuqu、yebuxiangzhuanchuqu。neizaizheizhongqingkuangxiabixubaliangzhexietongqilaiqujiejue，erzheixiejingyanduiyufazhanzhongguojialaijiangfeichangshiyong。

jiemianxinwen：tidaozhongguodejiaose，jinnianqihoudahuishangdezhongguoxiangmuyounaxieliangdian？

majun：zhongguodedingfuzongli（dingxuexiang），jieteshi（jiezhenhua），liubuzhang（zhongguowaijiaobuyuanfubuzhangliuzhenmin），tamendouzaiduogechanghefabiaoyanjiang，chanshuzhongguozhongyaodelichang。qizhongbaokuodajiayaotuanjieyizhituidongkezaishengnengyuan，yaoyanchubixing，yaoquluoshi。zheicidahuidezhuticixuanlesange， unite， act，delivery（tuanjie，xingdong，luoshi）。wojuedehendachengdushangzheiyeshizhongguozheixienianlaixiwangqutuidongdefangxiang。

ipezaiqudahuiqianzuoleyigebaogao《yingduiqihoubianhuadezhongguowushixingdong》，shiyouzhongguohuankeyuan，ipehaiyouxianggangdediqiuzhiyousanjialianhefabude，fabuyezaizhongguojiaojinxing，shulilezhongguodeshidawushidexingdong。baokuodingcengsheji，1+nzhengcetixi，daotuidongnengyuanzhuanxing，gongyedejienengjiangtan，chengxiangjianshezhongdedafujianpai，tanshichang，lvsejinrong，tanhui，quanminlvsexingdong，guojihezuo。

zheicifabuzhihoufanxiangbucuo，baokuotidaodeyixiexintongjideshuzi，yijizhongguosuocaiquzheixiexingdong，woxianggefangkandaozhihouhuichanshengyixiexinderenzhi，shidedajiakandao，zhongguojibenshangyijingmaishangzheiyangdeyitiaoditanfazhanlujing。