界面新闻记者 | 尹清露

界面新闻编辑 | 黄月

dangyiweimamajuedingzhuixing，huifashengshenme？2012nianzhi2014nian，yanyuanbennidikete·kangbobaqitongguojuji《shentanxialuoke》zouhong，“kangbobaqire”chengweixijuanquanqiudewenhuaxianxiang。duiaodaliyazuojiatabise·kawan（tabitha carvan）laishuo，neiyeshitadelianggehaizichushengdenianfen，danshiyubennixiangyoudeguanzhubutong，tabiseganshoudaodeshiyizhongwuzhijingdetingzhi，tabuzaixiezuo，beihuaiyunheburuchixuzhaqu。raner，zheiyiqiezaitamishangbennidiketehoufashenglegaibian，yechengweiletaxiexia《woyaokuaile！dangmamamenkaishizhuixing》deqiji。

zheibenshukansishiyiweimamamishangbennidezhuixingzhilu，shijishangjiangdeshinvxingruheduohuizhuixing、dutongrenxiaoshuo/yanqingxiaoshuo、xiailiuxingwenhuadeng“neijiudekuaile”（guilty pleasure）dequanli。zaiyu“kangbobiao”（bennidefensinicheng）、tongrenxiaoshuozuozheshenrujiaotanhou，kawantichulezhuduoshenjudangxiaxingdeyiti：weihenvxinghuizaidangshangmuqinhouxianruduimingrendemilian？weihenvxingzongweizijidechimizize，wufaxiangnanrenneiyangjinxingwanshua？tajingyadifaxian，chengweimuqinrutongjinrudierciqingchunqi，erzheishiyinwei，nvxinghuizaizheigegengkanzhonglixing、dulisikaodengjiazhideshehuixitongzhongbiandizijizhenzhengreaideshiwu，chizhiwei“heilishi”bingyunianshaodeziwojianxingjianyuan；nanxingzekeyizhuazhuzijideaihao，batabianchengzhongshengdejiqing，shenzhishiyifenshiye。

zaibenshuzhongwenbantuichuzhiji，jiemianwenhua（id：booksandfun）lianxianzhuanfangletabise·kawan，yiqiliaoleliaozhuixingmamadeshenghuoyijitaduimuzhi、nvxingdewanshuadengwentidekanfa，yijiwomenduishixiazuiliuxingdeouxiangtaile·siweifutegongtongdechimi。zaitakanlai，yiqieguigenjiedidouyuaiyouguan，eraiwuchadeng，zhengrutazaishuzhongsuoxie：“zhiyaowomenbeidadongle，dadongwomendejiujingshishenmehaizhongyaoma？”

01 初为人母与青春期相似，都不太确定自己是谁

界面文化：是什么促使你写了这本书？在大多数人看来，追星是一件私人且无需多加解释的事情，你却产生了强大的动力并完成了这本书。

塔比瑟·卡万：qichu，wojiushixiangxiexiebennidikete·kangbobaqi，woyouxuduochuangzuolinggan，suoyikaishixiexiexiaoduanwen，tougaojiwangzhan。houlai，woxieleyipianguanyumuzhiyijiwoduibennidiketedeganqingdewenzhang，zheipianwenzhangbeiyijiameiguoyuerwangzhanfabiao，fanxiangfeichangrelie，henduorenxiexingaosuwotamenyouguoxiangsijingli。zheirangwoyishidao，woyiweineixiefeichangsirenheteshudejingli，shijishiyigerenmenpingshibuhuitaolundezhongyaoxianxiang，zheishiwoxiangnuliqujieshita。

界面文化：《神探夏洛克》播出时的热潮至今还历历在目，本尼迪克特·康伯巴奇这个痴迷对象也很有意思，他有点“怪”，极具魅力却又不是传统意义上的魅力男性，比如他谦逊并尊重女性——你还很喜欢的哈里·斯泰尔斯（Harry Styles）也是同样的人。他的魅力到底是什么？这种痴迷偏好的变化是不是也说明了女性意识的变迁？

塔比瑟·卡万：wojuedebennidiketedetedianshi，tabushichuantongyiyishangdeshuaige，zheiyidianrangtagengyoumeilile，ruguoninengkandaotademeilisuozai，ta（zainiyanzhong）jiuhuibiandegengjingzhihetebie。tashiyigemingan、xinsizhenmideren，shanliangyoucongming，suoyouzheixiedouyutadewaibiaoxingchenglehudong，zheilingtachengweileyigefeichanglitideouxiang。zhiyunvxingyishidebianhua，kenengyouba，danyiqianyeyoudawei·baoyizheiyangdeouxiang。worenweiouxiangxuyaoshiyigefengfu、kegongchongfentansuodeduixiang，jinjinshizhangdemeihaibugou，womenxuyaoyouqudejingli、chusederenge，birubennidemeilihendayibufenlaiziyuxialuoke·fuermosi，tafeichangnanxiangchu，danshibennizheigeyanyuanqueheaikeqin、binbinyouli，zheizhijiandezhangliweifensidehuanxiangzhurulexuduohuoli。

halishilingyigezheiyangdelizi，tayouxiangsideminganhenvxingtezhi，tayeduichuanzhenvzhuangsihaobugandaoganga。youyisideshi，nvxingtongchangbeirenweixihuanyanggangdenanren，danshihalizhengmingle，yigenengyunvxingqizhihexiegongchudenanrenshihenyouxiyinlide。

buguowobixushuo，shuyubennidiketedeshidaiyijingguoqule，tarengranshiyigezhidezunjingdeyanyuan，danbuzaishitebieshouhuanyingdeouxiangle。wodaobuhuitebienanguo，tajiehunchengjiahouxiangyaobaohuzijidesishenghuo，zheiyangyehenhao，tayijingshanyaoguole，xianzaigailundaoxiayigele。

界面文化：你是在母亲这个身份的压抑和迷失下开始痴迷于本尼迪克特的。在你看来，痴迷为何会在这时发生？青春期和成为母亲后的“痴迷”又有怎样的不同？我记得你曾在《卫报》的文章中写过：“中年是新的青春期，曾经的轻微羞愧记忆，现在变成了非常令人担忧的生活现实。”

塔比瑟·卡万：wozongshimangyuzhaoguhaizi，meiyouzijideshijian，haoxiangwanquanshiquleziwo，bianchengleyigezhihuiweinai、dasaoweishengdemiaoxiaozhiren。youxiedongxiposhiwobixuzhaodaoyigechukou，zaineigejiqiyouxiandeshijielibiaodaziji 。qijianwonengzuodejiushizaijiakandianshi，danshineiyezugoule，zuyichengweiyizhongchudongneixindeciji，huanxingneixiewufazaiqitadifangbiaodadehuohua。wohenxihuandaihaizi，yexihuanzuomuqin，danzheizhishiwoshenghuodeyigefangmian。jiuzaiwoxuyaoyigechukoulaibiaodashenfendeqitamianxiangshi，ta（bennidikete）chuxianle。

zheiheqingchunqihenxiangsi，neiyeshiyigenibutaiquedingzijishisheideshiqi，biaodaziwodefangshiyetongyangyouxian。worenwei，“muqin”zheiyishenfendaizoulewoziqingchunqiyilaixingchengdesuoyoufuzaxing，tasuoxiaolewosuoguanzhushiqingdefanwei，rangwohuidaoqingshaonianshiqineigebenzhendeziji。dangran，zuoweimuqinheqingshaoniandezhuixingtiyanshibutongde，bijingshenchubutongdeshenghuohehuanjing，danshiduiwolaishuo，neixindeganjueshiyimoyiyangde——wanquanchenjinzaimilianyuxiyuezhizhong，bingshoudaojidaguwu。

zheiyeshiweishenmewohuijuedeganga，yinweiwoweiyishuxizheizhongganjuedeshiqijiushiqingshaonian，erxianzaiwoshiyimingmuqin，zheirangwodanxinzijideqingganzaixianghoudaotui。danshijishang，zhishizheizhongganjuezaiqingshaonianzhihouxiaoshi，xianzaizhongxinhuilaileeryi。

02 整个系统是为了保护男人的闲暇和快乐

界面文化：你在书中写到了其他“康伯婊”妈妈们，她们也经历着同样的尴尬感受，比如匿名参加本尼的网络论坛，不倾向于公之于众。为什么会这样？在澳大利亚，追星妈妈们又会遭受怎样的误解和偏见？

塔比瑟·卡万：dangnihaishiqingshaonianshi，xianranyongyougengduodeziyoushijianhegengshaodezeren，suoyichimiyumingxingshimeiwentide。danshisuizhenianlingzengzhang，youqishiduiyunvxinglaishuo，suoyoudekongxianshijiandouhuizhixiangzhaoguzeren：zhaoguzijidewaibiao、zhaogufumu、haizihegongzuo，genbenmeishijianjizijizhaodianlezi。ruguonixiangweizijitengchushijian，neikejiushiyijiandashile——nibixucongjiatingzhongchouchushijian，ranhourenmenhuishuonimeiyouhaohaoliyongshijian，nibushigehaomuqin。

yinci，dangyimingmuqinxiangweizijizuodianshiqing，tajihubukenengbuweicigandaobaoqian。danwentishi，nanrenyougengduodexianxiashijian，erqiemeitiandouyou，dangtamenbashijianhuazaizijishenshangshi，neijiubusuan“zhanyongjiatingshijian”。aodaliyayixiangzuixinyanjiubiaoming，congshiquanzhigongzuodenanxinggengqingxiangyuduanlianshenti，tamenxiwangzaiyitianzhongzuogengduoyundong，neimefangfajiushixiangqizi“jieshijian”。yushi，nanrenhuazaiyundongshangdeshijianyueduo，qizizuoqitashideshijianjiuyueshao。nanrendeshijianxiangdanhuangyiyangkeyibianhua，ernvxingdeshijianshigudingde。

界面文化：令人印象深刻的是，正如你在书中描述的那样——你的丈夫已经比许多已婚男士做得要好了，而你在结婚前也以为自己可以选择夫妻共同育儿。

塔比瑟·卡万：danshizheibingbuxianshi。jinguanwodezhangfuhenzhichiwo，danwohaishihuibeizaijiaweihaizi、qingjiazheiyangdeshikunzhu，nizhuandeqianjiuhuibianshao——yinweigongzuobianshaole。zheiyangyilaizhangfudegongzuojiubiandegengyouyiyi，nidegongzuobiandeyuelaiyueshao……zheixiexiaoshijiaqilaixingchengexingxunhuan。bingqie，jishizhangfurenweizijizuodejiawuheqiziyiyangduo，qiziyeyaoweilejingyingshenghuozuogengduonaoligongzuo，zheixieshizhangfubuhuikaolvde。

worenwei，ruguomuqinmenxiangyaozhaohuikuaile，diyibujiushibuyaoqiangqiushijian——zheijihushibukenengde。nibixuzaizheilitengchuxiekongjian（zhilezhizijidedanao），yongyouyigefengfudeneixinshijie。yinweitarucifengfu，nicaihuigandaozijiyounenglicaiqujiexialaidecuoshi，birugengyouxiaodiliyongshijian，bingrangbierenmingbainixuyaogengduoshijian。

diyibujiushizhaodaoyigerangnijuedezijibi“muqin”zheigejiaosegengdadedongxi。nataile·siweifutejuli，tailedefensihuihuahenduoshijiansikaota，nikenengzuozaihuocheshang、zhizhididingzheqianfang，neixinquebolanzhuangkuo。zheigefangfaduimuqinlaishuoyezaihaobuguo，takeyiyibianpeihaizihuozuofanyibianzheiyangzuo。

界面文化：这本书的另一个重点是“内疚的快乐”（guilty pleasure）。如你所说：女性没有说出口的，恰恰是女性情感中最有价值的部分。你是怎样逐渐意识到自己无需为快乐感到内疚的？你如今又怎样看待这个说法本身？

塔比瑟·卡万：zheigezhuanbianguochengyuwozuoweimuqindeyishizhuanbianshitongyangde。muqinweizijizuoderenheshiqingdouhuilingtaneijiu，yinweineiyiweizhezhanyongjiatingshijian。jishishimanpaozheiyangduijiankangyouyidehuodong，yeshizailangfeishijian。buguanshixihuanbennidikete、shuainstagramhaishigenpengyouliaotian，tamendoushiyiyangde。

suoyi，nigenbenjiuyingbule，zhenggexitongdeshejijiushiweilebaohunanrendexianxiashijianhekuaile，bingrangnvxingchengdangengduozhaoguzeren，rangtamenbazhuyilijizhongzaibierenshenshangerbushiziji。shishishang，genbenmeiyouliyoushuozuqiubibennidikete·kangbobaqigengyoujiazhi——baituo，zuqiushixugouchulaideyouxi，ranhourenmenpaolaipaoqu。danshiwomenyijingjieshoulezheixiangyundong，renweitashishenghuodezhongyaozuchengbufen，daliangdezijinhexinwenguanzhutouruqizhong，renmencongweiweicigandaoxiuchiguo。

youmingnvxingjiwoxieguoyifengxin，tashitaile·siweifutedefensi，zaiyijiazhiyuandabufenshinanxingdegongchenggongsigongzuo。liangnianqian，tailedezhuanji《wuye》（midnights）faxingshi，tashuo“woxuyaoqingyitianjia，yinweiwoxianghuayitianshijiantingzheizhangzhuanji”，bangongshidemeigerendouzaiquxiaota，shuotaxianggexiaonvhai，wentadezhentoushangbuhuixiuzhedujiaoshouba？danshitazhichu，zaibangqiusaiji，zheixienanxinghuihuanxiangzhezheigeweizheqiupaodeyouxi，jiazhuangneizhiqiuduizhendecunzai，tamenyehuiqingjiakanbangqiu，haoxiangmeishenmebibangqiugeng“chengshu”le。

界面文化：泰勒正是以前会被轻视的那类歌手，因为她唱的都是“肤浅”的感情生活，但是这种观点如今已经被扭转了。

塔比瑟·卡万：是的，我在书中引用了那名心理学家卡罗尔·吉利根的观点（注：女性主义心理学家，她提出了一种不同于男性视角的伦理观，不是强调独立与分离，而是互相联系和关心他人，也包括关心过往的自己而不至于与真实的自己失去联系）。jibainianlai，nanrenyizhizaishuokeguan、quanwei、qiangda、dulicaishihaode，danneizhishitamendexiangfa。shuyibaiwanjidenvhaihefunvzhengzaibiaoming，womendetixi——zhenshi、cuiruo、chengshi、kuaile、rezhongyutanlunqinggan——tongyangjiazhiliancheng，erzheijiushitailesuozhanshideyiqie。

03 说粉丝行为既危险又值得担忧，令我感到沮丧

界面文化：你在书中提到了女儿对于粉色和公主装扮的喜爱，而你从最开始的拒斥、认为这不够“女性主义”，转而意识到这种想法也是在否定女性的声音，可以讲讲心路历程的转变吗？我看到，你前阵子还陪女儿去了时代巡演的现场。

塔比瑟·卡万：meicuo，woyiweiwoshuo“nibuyongfeidexihuannvhaiziqidedongxi，nikeyixihuanrenhedongxi”jiushizaibangzhutuozhantadeshijie。ketazhishigehaizi，tajieshoudexinxiqishishi——kanlailingyixiedongxigengyoujiazhi，woxihuanzheixiezhishiyinweitamenbeituixiaojilewo。woyishidao，woxuyaogulitazoutadelu，jiuxiangguliwoerziyiyang，ertaxihuandeshiqichehehuoche。zheifanguolaiyingxianglewo，zuoweiyimingnvxingzhuyizhe，wocengjingduihuazhuanggandaohenmaodun，zhiyiwoshifoushibeipode，danshishishang，tukouhongchumendeganjuefeichanghao，woturanjiushiranle，buxiangzaiqushenchazijidexingwei。

dainverqushidaixunyanshiworenshengzhongzuibangdejinglizhiyi，zaixianchangkeyikandaosuoyounianlingduandenvxing，youxiangtazheimexiaodenvhai，yeyouersanshisuihuosishiduodenvxing，haiyoumamamen。dajiajinqingwanlejianjiao，chuanzijixiangchuandeyifu，zheijiushitaxuyaodebangyang。wodechengzhangjinglilejudadebianhuaheduanlie，danshitabubizaijinglizheixie，tabubizaishuo：wozhangdale，meifazaiquyanchanghuile。ruguotazairenshengdemeigejieduandouxiangzheiyangzuo，neizheijianshijiubuxuyaojieshu。

当泰勒的新专辑《折磨诗人部》（The Tortured Poets Department）发行时，我觉得我女儿是不会理解这些歌曲的想法的，毕竟很多东西她还不懂，但是她绝对能体会到其中的感情。比如当她跟唱《Who's Afraid of Little Old Me》（注：一首曲风暗黑怪诞/表达愤怒情绪的戏剧性歌曲），tawanquanlejiezheishougechuandachudeliliang。zheidequehenshenqi，womendeshenghuojinglibutong，queyouzhexiangtongdejingyan。

泰勒也是这样拥抱她所有的专辑，以及专辑所代表的时代的，她如今35岁，还在台上唱着15岁创作的歌曲，歌曲的意涵仍然有效，她也仍充满热情。我也是如此，可以随时进入所有这些“时代”，我想现阶段我应该正处于泰勒意义上的“大名誉时代”（Reputation Era）（注：简单来说，这是一个与女性复仇和反叛相关的时代）。

guigenjiedi，yiqiedouyuaiyouguan，wulunshidangwodenverkanxiangtaishangdetaile，haishidangwokanxiangshenbiandenver——tamenshitongyizhongqinggan，jiuxiangnanshengduizuqiudeaiyiyang，womenzhixuyaodiaozheng“ai”dedingyiheshiyongfanwei。zheizhongqingganshijijide，suoyimeicibierenshuofensixingweijiweixianyouzhidedanyou，doulingwogandaojusang。

界面文化：你觉得自己的想法转变在多大程度上受到时代思潮变化的影响？在我的印象中，集体性承认“肤浅的”女性经验是在近两年才开始的（伴随着电影《芭比》爆火等文化现象），在“本尼迪克特热”的那几年还不完全是这样。

塔比瑟·卡万：zheibenshu2022nianzaiaodaliyachuban，jishizaiwoxieshudeqijian，shiqingyezaifashengbianhua。shishishang，shidaixunyancong2023nianchuntiankaibandaoxianzai，suizheyuelaiyueduoderenjiarukuanghuan，zheichangkuanghuanyouchixulezheimejiu，gongzhongduitaile、duinvxingwanledekanfayeyizhizaifashenggaibian。suoyiwohenqingchu，zheibenshudeduzhebuwanquanshinianqingren，yinweitamenyijingbuzaiweimimeideshenfengandaoxiuchi。woshiweixiangwozheiyangderenxiezheibenshude，tamenchengzhangyulingyigeniandai，guannianhaibijiaoluohou，ruguobujinkuaizhuanbianzijideguannian，henyoukenenghuiyingxiangwomendenvermendechengzhang。

wozaidianyingyuankanle《babi》，dangshiyanmamadeneiweiyanyuanyameilika·feileilafabiaoneiduandubaishi，suoyouguanzhongdouzaiguzhang。erjiuzai《babi》shangyingqijian，nvzushijiebeizhenghaozaiaodaliyajuban，neiyeshiyigezhongyaodeshike，womenkandaohenbangdenvhaizaicongshizheixiangyundong。suoyi，zheibenshunengzaizheishichuban，woyegandaohenxingyun，yinweiguobulejinianshulideguandianjiuhuibiandewuliaoerchenjiule。

界面文化：你接触过很多比你年长的本尼迪克特粉丝，她们的年龄远超过社会认知中会爱上名人的年龄。为什么会这样？在中国，年长女性的情感需求也是一个备受忽视的话题，许多人会对短视频里被捏造的明星产生依恋而受到诈骗。你接触的女性们又处于怎样的状态？

塔比瑟·卡万：wojingchangshoudaoduzhelaixin，youxierenyijing75huo80suile，dantamenrengranjuedeziji（zhuixingshi）deganshouhenianqingshiyiyang，zheijianshichengweitamenshenghuozhongdemaodian，rangtamendeyirenqingzhenzhengdezijishishei。

beizhapiandeyigeyuanyinkenengshilaonianrenquefanianqingrendewangluosuyang，danwoxiangshuodeshi，ruguoyimingnvxingdeqingganxuqiubushishenmebixubaochisimi、kechidedongxi，neitamenyexujiubutaikenengchengweipianzidemubiao，yinweitamenwuxuzaineilixunqiuqingganlianjie。suoyi，changshijiangzijideganshouhehuanxiangzhengchanghuafeichangzhongyao。tongshi，nianqingyidaiyekeyizengqiangshangyidaidenengli，henduonvxingxiexinjiwo，doushiyouyutamennverdeguli。

界面文化：如你在书中所说，男性往往在保护玩耍成为其生活的一部分方面做得更好。对于那些想要更好地玩耍的女性，你有什么建议吗？

塔比瑟·卡万：shouxian，buyaoweixihuandeshiqinggandaobuhaoyisi。tamenmingmingzhidaoshenmenengrangzijikuaile，quechuyuneijiuerburangzijixiangshouqizhong。qici，changshizaineixinshenchuxiangzhenzhengxiaidedongxikaolong，yongnidefangshiqusikaota。youshihou，jiandandiyongyouyigexihuanbangqiudenanrenneiyangdezixinyehenbucuo。